Main figures:
ag-milan (Ali Goukassian/Sales and organisation)
ricewind (Michael Schwingen/TOS-Programming)
ThomasG (Thomas Gttsche/Drivers for graphic cards and VDI)
Uwe_S (Uwe Schneider, hardware development)
rosebud (Dr. Uwe Seimet, HD-Driver)
petzi (Web-Design)



<rincewind> MintNet should run without problems. I am not sure where Draconis was mentioned ... but we have people working on ethernet drivers for MineNet now.
<Tib_F> <_Mario> So MiNT runs well on the Milan?Phil_ has left IRC: Atari Rules!
<rincewind> It does. You need a current MiNT version (currently 1.14 with some minor patches for the serial ports), but it works just fine.
<rincewind> ozk: Why is the Milan so much cheaper than the Hades040? Does the Milan use cheaper parts than the Hades, and does that affect it's performance? Will it be as fast as the Hades?
<Tib_F> here is one for Ali: <Gravyboat> Will there be an english version of 
the milan homepage soon?
<ag-milan> Let me say something regarding the price ...
<Tib_F> another one for ali: <Dial_M> Will there be any marketing of the Milan in non-Atari specific computer
<Tib_F> shows? and what's the word on U.S. distribution?...
<ag-milan> I think that there are mainly two reasons why the milan is so cheap
<Tib_F> uwe, this one is for you: <_Mario> What sort of common "PC" cards can I use on the milan (I.e. drivers)?
<Uwe_S> The Milan ist so much cheaper because of the cheaper components from the PC-Board. The Clock frequency of the Milan is 25MHz and the clock of the Hades040 33Mhz. The Mlan with 33MHz is as fast as the Hades040.
<Tib_F> and another one for Ali: <Rich10> which countries will the Milan be available in ?
<ag-milan> 1) We do not have all the ST-components like Soundchip, SCSI-Port ... on the milan-board. The hardware we need to run ATARI-software that uses special ST-Hardware is beeing emulated by logic chips ... that makes a lot cheaper and easier
<Tib_F> <petzi> Gravyboat: The English website will be up in July
<ag-milan> 2) the second reason is that we do not only want to sell a view hunderets to earn our money ... we want a new TOS-market and this is only possible if we have attractive prices. What means: we do really not earn a lot! We hope to earn with a bigger future-market.
<rincewind> _Mario: The hardware supports ISA and PCI cards. From the hardware side, most common cards should work just fine - the problem is that you need drivers for them.
<ag-milan> The milan will be available in many countries :-), we have now GB, France, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Poland, Danmark, Canada, US ... this list is growing and its astonoshing to see how many atarians all over the world are interested in the milan (Greec, Japan, Portugal ....)
<Uwe_S> At this time we have only drivers for simple Network card, S3 Video Cards and one Midi card. It is possible to plug in all PC-Cards you want, the only thing is to get a driver for it. We are working on drivers for SCSI-Cards and Sound-Cards.
<Tib_F> we just change the chat slightly. tiitsu has aquestion: tiisu: please ask:
<rincewind> OK - don't /msg us with questions. We will first work the questions still inthe queue and then give +v to you to ask yourself on the channel.
<rincewind> ozk: How easy (or hard) is it to get it up to 33Mhz?
<Tiitsu> Is it Hades hardware compatible with Milan hardware? Can I use those Milan SCSI-card drivers with Hades? etc...
<rincewind> ozk: the hardware runs fine at 33MHz - onlt the CPUs are a bit more difficult to get at that speed.
<rincewind> Tiitsu: PCI cards work fine in Hades and Milan. We have worked out a common PCI BIOS standard so that drivers work in Hades and Milan without modifications.
[petzi] Wups
<rincewind> Tiitsu: The Hades can't do DMA on the ISA bus, so some sound cards etc. that work in the Milan won't work in the Hades.
<Tib_F> ok. next is <JoshuaK> Hi, I was wondering about the TOS. Is it also in English? I hears Motorola is short of 060 CPUs. How will that affect the relese of the 060 version?
<rincewind> The TOS is a multi-language version - and english will definitely be supported. I am not sure about the list of other languages, but if there is enough demand, we can add them.
<Tib_F> <Mikey_1> Will there be a Milan060 or a way to update it to one?
<Uwe_S> The TOS is in english too. I havent heard that Motzorola is short of 060 CPUs. The 060 CPU is much more expensive then the 040 CPU because of that we deceided tor release the Milan first wich an 040 CPU.
<ag-milan> about sweden: actually we do not have a dealer, but milan will be on the atari nordic show and after the show well try to contact some dealers ... but at least indigo 2 from Danmark is interested and they also support Sweden, Norway ...
<Uwe_S> The release with the 060 CPU will come with a litte daughterboard in the end of the Year.
<rincewind> [AnthonyJ] you mention ethernet drivers - for common/cheap cards?
<rincewind> There is work going on for NE2000-based ethernet cards (PCI) and DEC Tulip cards. I have a SMC Ultra (ISA) running using the TUWTCP package.
<Tib_F> <GothAsh> You mention on the web site AudioTracker and Cubase Audio compatibility - is this with a DSP card?
<rincewind> [rosebud] What about Peter Rottengatter's STing?
<ag-milan> Yes, and the NE2000-drivers are very interesting because they support any TCP/IP-Network ... wether you have Linux, NT or MilanOS ..
<rincewind> I have not yet looked into that, but I believe Peter is already working on something in that direction for the Panther ISA adapter. If that works, it should be trivial to adapt
<rincewind> it to the Milan.<ag-milan> okay, regarding the DSP-Cards
<rincewind> If someone els is interested, there is no problem in getting developer support.
<ag-milan> Until now its only the StarTrack-Card with a 56301-DPS thats running on a milan. We have made an XBIOS that ist compatible with the Falcon XBIOS so any program that uses the XBIOS-routines
<ag-milan> should work fine with any soundcard that is adapted to the milan. Well get support by SoundPool and Softjee, too, will join the milan ... Cubase ...
<ag-milan> ist a little more difficult to handle. They have a lot of falon-code in their software and Steinberg GMBH wants to wait until ...
<Tib_F> <redpixel> will it support 3dfx cards?
<ag-milan> the milan becomes a success .... but Mr. Steinberg himself is an ATARI-Fan and he told us that hell spend his sparetime ...irc.fu-berlin.de PINGed you
<Tib_F> redpixel: there are no applications to support 3dfx. even no opengl-applications, which wcould be suupported via mesa
<ag-milan> to adapt the actual-version of Cubase-Audio to the milan ... Its just a question of time!
<Tib_F> ok, ozk has a question. please go ahead ozk
<ozk> I wonder about developer documentation.. will most atari development docs do, and will I get the machine specific stuff with the machine when I buy it? Or will i have to register as a developer?
<rincewind> If you do not want to do hardware specific stuff, the standard Atari documentation will do.
<rincewind> Ie. VDI/AES/...
<Tib_F> now quiet has a question:
<rincewind> If you need hardware access, eg. for writing device drivers, you need special documentation.
<rincewind> The one about the PCI BIOS is finished, we are still working on the 
other documentation. It will be available from the web site.
<Quiet-> i want to know which graphic cards are supported, currently?  are there any drivers for the Matrox Millenium or Mystique?
<Quiet-> thanks
<ThomasG> At this time we support s3 trio64 v+/dx/dx2 cards
<ThomasG> If we get information from Matrox,it will be possible to support 
Matrox Cards too
<Tib_F> now mario hase a quesetion. mario?
<_Mario> What keyboard and mouse will be used on the Milan?
<Uwe_S> A standard PC-Keyboard and an PS-2 Mouse
<Tib_F> <scheng> why you dont sell the Milan in a standard case? Why we have 
to spend more money by the dealers for a Milan design case?
<ag-milan> Thats not correct with the cases
<Tib_F> <TomFerrei> has a question:
<TomFerrei> Two questions. I never really heard about your company until recently.  Have you been around for awhile and what size company are you.   2nd question is I heard that there will be a Pentium card available for the Milan. Is this true and will it run popular OSes like NeXT OPENSTEP and BeOS. One machine with TOS, MilanOS, BeOS, and OPENSTEP would be great!  BTW, I love the Milan case... Looks hot!!!
<ag-milan> We do sell them in standard-cases ... we only promote a special case because its important to recognice a system when you first see it on the web or in magazines and than in a computer-shop or so ... thats it ... everyone can use any case :-)
<ag-milan> Regarding us ...
<ag-milan> Uwe Schneider has his own hardware-production-company and hes been working for several atari-dealers in the last years together with Michael Schwingen ... me I do the German ATARI-Magazine and have a Software-Support ... so were both well known in the market as ATARI-Enthusiasts
<Tib_F> <dieter> Is it planned to make alternate systems available, like MagiC or Linux-68k? If yes: do you know, when it will be available?
<Uwe_S> Because we are using standard PC-Komponents on the Milan motherboard it is easy to develop a Pentim card using all this components. But the big problem is to get a PC-BIOS for the card, because of the small quantitiy of the Pentium card.
<rincewind> dieter: Yes, we do plan to support Linux. Roman Hodek was very interested on the atri show in Neuss.
<rincewind> ASH is interested in porting Magic, but I do not know when this might be done.
<Uwe_S> if we get enoutg intrest in the Pentium card it will be available soon. Common operating systems should work.
<Tib_F> now its <josk> turn. <josk> go ahead:
[petzi] dieter: Anyome who's interested in MagiC Milan, drop them a line to show them there's a demand
<josk> Will it be possible to buy a standalon motherboard? I have a lot of stuff lying around (inc. a 040)...
<ag-milan> If your dealer sells you a board its okay ...
<rincewind> josk: At least in the first time, only dealers will get bare motherboards, so it is up to them do decide if they want to sell them alone or only in a complete system.
<Tib_F> now its <^Gryf^> turn:
<^Gryf^> How's the layout of the PC keyboard, i.e. which keys are Help,
<^Gryf^>    Undo, and are PgUp/Down mapped to produce either a special combination or
<^Gryf^>    the standard VDI scancodes for thses keys?
<rincewind> Currently, we have HELP and UNDO on PrtScrn and ScrollLock.
<rincewind> PageUp and PageDn shall produce the standard VDI codes - however, I am not sure how many programs do support these.
<ThomasG> VDi standar codes for pageup and page down maybe possible
<^Gryf^> Well, one does ;)
<rincewind> So we might have to look for another solution.
<ThomasG> I thing Magic use the etra Keys on the Mac
<Tib_F> <Bagpuss> wanted to ask how the price has been kept low when other tos computers (hades etc) are so expensive?
<Uwe_S> Because of he use od standard PC-Components and a emulation for the not existing Atari Hardware.
<Tib_F> now Szuko^DSP:
[petzi] MrMaddog: Have you seen the list of compatible software on our website?
<Tib_F> szuko doesnt want to ask?
<drac030> regarding freemint... is the milan os team interested in cooperation with people involved in freemint development? i mainly mean sharing patches, consulting the further mint directions etc? thanks.
<rincewind> Sure. Rainer Mannigel does the most work on MiNT - but we are 
interested in having the current Freemint working on Milan out-of-the-box, so 
we will provide all necessary patches etc.
<Tib_F> <Rich10> what sort of market are you aiming at, low end PC type or high end atarians
<Tib_F> <_Mario> Will drivers for standard "PC" serial-port cards be available? And parallel ports?
<ag-milan> Why low-end PC? Weve made a test: a JPG-Grafic roteted on a milan with 25 MHz 8 times faster than on a falcon (both with the brand new Smurf-Graficsoftware) but the Falcon-Version was exactly as fast as a Power PC 200 with Adobe Photoshop with the same operation ... many, many people will be very surprised about the powerful combination "Mian, TOS and small ATARI-Soft"
<Tib_F> now quiet asks again:
<Uwe_S> There are 3 Serial ports and one parallel port on the motherboard, but it is possible to get more ports with PC-PlugIn cards.
<rincewind> The on board ones are already supported.
<rincewind> If you need more, it should be no big problem to get them working 
using the same drivers.
<Quiet-> assides from Thomas Raukamp, is Rainer Mannigel also involved in the 
MiNT list?
<Quiet-> thanks.
<rincewind> What mint list?
<rincewind> I believe he does not read the MiNT mailing list, since he does not have a real internet address.
<Quiet-> the mint list:
<Tib_F> just a comment: at http://www.uweschneider.de/images/hardware/board2.jpg you can see the motherboard of the milan
<Quiet-> mint@atari.archive.umich.edu
<Quiet-> to subscribe to the list, email:
<Quiet-> hyc@highlandsun.com <Howard Chu>
<rincewind> OK, I know the list ... I just was not sure what kind of 'list' you meant.
<Quiet-> it might be a good idea, since MiNT development is discussed there ever day
<Tib_F> now we go on to <TomFerrei>
<TomFerrei> For those of us that buy the Milan 040 now, will we beable to buy this 060 daughter card later so we can become 060 or would we need a whole new motherboard??
<Uwe_S> It is possible to get the daughterboard. You need not to buy a new motherboard for the 060 CPU
<Tib_F> now: <AnthonyJ>
<AnthonyJ> whats the situation with sound hardware? are you going to support the standard Atari/Falcon frequencies, or will all software have to be modified to understand PC [44.1 etc] frequencies?
<rincewind> That depends on the sound hardware you use.
<rincewind> The StarTrack board should be able to do all falcon frequencies, 
but I am not 100% sure.
<AnthonyJ> ah, ok, so you dont plan to build your own sound-card with compat 
hardware.
<Tib_F> FYI, Drac030 is also the current MiNT kernel maintainer.
<rincewind> ISA sound cards are quite flexible, too. However, I think all professional software is capable of using 44.1/48kHz anyway.
Tib_F issued a mode change: #Milan -v AnthonyJ
[petzi] We should get the StarTrack-developper Stephan Wilhelms (??) to another chat
<Tib_F> now MrMaddog has a question......
<MrMaddog> I have another question, since I would like to develop ST and possibly Falcon games...how well can they run on the Milan?
<Uwe_S> Stefan Wilhelm the developer of the StarTrac Sound card planned to 
develop a cheaper Version of the StarTrak card, so we do not need to develop a 
own soundcard.
<Tib_F> <ozk> has another question:
<ozk> I wonder about the Pentium Card that Computer Direct was producing.. Willl anyone take over than devlopment?
<ozk> Thanks
<rincewind> Maddog: if they use VDI, they should run fine.
<rincewind> Direct hardware access is a problem - you can't switch screens on a VGA card as you can on a falcon or ST.
<Uwe_S> I do not know the Pentium Crad from Computer Direct.
<Uwe_S> We planned to develop our own card because we can use the main memory and the ports of the Milan.
<drac030> ok, what is the milan memory map. i understand there's no more ST RAM?
<Tib_F> well. quiet had the last question. hes at the other side now ;-) somebody else?
<Tib_F> tnx drac!
<Uwe_S> The Milan has Memory below 14Megs (ST-RAM) and Memory above 16Megs (TT-
RAM) but there is no difference in access time between ST and TT-RAM.
<rincewind> The only difference is that ISA DMA can only access the lower 16MB, ie. the ST-RAM.
<drac030> uwe: what is the max amount of memory?
<Uwe_S> 512 MB of RAM
<Tib_F> now <Quietti> has onother one:
<Quietti> ok, since you mention video screens not being accessible easily, excpet using VDI, does this mean MiNT virtual consoles won't work?
<Quietti> thanks
<rincewind> Quietty: not sure. You can directly access the video memory - but 
there is only one screen, you can't switch the screen base.
<rincewind> If the cirtual console driver switches between them by copying the contents, it should work.
<drac030> rincewind: is the screen mem accessible in user mode (stupid question 
probably)?
<rincewind> Yes, it is.
<Tib_F> now it's <GothAsh> turn:
<GothAsh> So, AudioTracker will *need* additional hardware - how expensive will 
this be as I'm just a poor student :-(
<ThomasG> in the Milan works a Grafikcard,which use his own memory so it isnt possible to switch to his own screen.
<rincewind> A standard 50-100DM PC sound card (Soundblaster or similar) should be sufficient as soon as we have drivers for them.
<drac030> rincewind: what about a support in the OS itself for multiple screens? that would greatly facilitate writing vcons driver (not exactly a great piece of software now)?
<rincewind> The problsm is that the video hardware can't do it, no matter of OS support.
<ag-milan> Depends on the soundcard that is ported to the milan ... The XBIOS allowes you even to use a Soundblaster-Card ... So maybe therell be some cheaper and some better cards in the near future ... were working on a Soundblaster-Driver which only would noct allow you to use DSP-Effects
<drac030> rincewind: i meant by copying the screen contents, not by reallocation...
<rincewind> It could be done in lower resolutions where you have enough video mem, but this is not a general solution - so we would have to copy the screen memory.
<ThomasG> The only possible way to switch screens, is to allocate 2 screnn on the card and then switch between them,maybe possible.I will look
<Tib_F> <pahartik^> has a question about the OS:
<rincewind> drac: Do you need OS support for copying the screen? It would be no 
big problem, but is it needed?
<pahartik^> about Milan's default OS... is it easy to upgrade? 'flashing' by software? is it possible to boot without disk drives?
<drac030> thomas: what about "blitting" the "not-used" screen to a fast ram buffer?
<Uwe_S> Yes it ist easily to be upgraded. You need to start a program to flast the new OS
<drac030> rincewind: well, no i don't need :-) but if various gfx cards might be used, a unified interface like that would be useful... i don't know though.
<Uwe_S> Yes it is possible to boot the system wishout Floppy and/or harddisks.
<Tib_F> now <FBI_> informs me, that there will be a Milan at the Nordic Atari Show 1998. just /msg him for more infos ;-)
<rincewind> drac: OK - maybe Thomas should think about this.
<ThomasG> Use a standard VDI Funktion,or do it yourself.But it isnt quick. 640*480*8 or so
<Tib_F> <ozk> with another question:
<Tib_F> ozk?
<ozk> I wonder what types of ram can be use.. I understand that standard 72-pin simms can be used.. Can EDO too? Plans about supporting SDRAM ? Also, the lower 16-meg or ram.. that's accessed as 32-bit ?
<rincewind> You need EDO SIMMS.
<rincewind> All memory is accessed the same kind.
<Tib_F> <dieter> What about the SCSI-card, will it be available at the beginning ?
<Uwe_S> pahartik^: We have an bootblock which can be flashed diefferently to the Milan TOS if it is needed. With an intact bootblock you can boot up the TOS from Floppy and flash a new TOS.
<Uwe_S> If flashing the bootblock fails you need to change the Flash-ROM which is in an socket.
<Tib_F> <AnthonyJ> is the PMMU used/needed by the OS? It was pointed out on the MiNT mailing list recently that this use in the AB040 could make Memory Protection+Virtual Memory even more complex.
<Tib_F2> now popel has a question
<popel> cool
<popel> what about the future, does you have the financial power to develop a new machine?
<ag-milan> We had the power to buy a complete OS that still cost a lot including all that we needed, we had the power to do an onwn hardwaresystem with new PCI-Bios-Systems, we had the power to rework the OS completely and we had the power to build up a reseller-network of more thant 40 distributors ... I am not afraid about what will come :-)
<Tib_F2> <Mario_> has the next question:
<Mario_> Can I use two monitors on the Milan, by simply connecting more than one graphiccs card?
<rincewind> In theory: yes. The problem is that someone needs to do drivers for that, and the VDI was not designed for multi-monitor operation.
<ThomasG> At This Time only one Monitor,in the Future it could be possible to use two Cards in the Milan,but the VDi cant manage that now.
<Tib_F2> now <Quietti> hast a new question....
<Quietti> 2 things:
<Quietti> 1) about Mario's question, i think he was refering to the TT030, where one can use a TTM195 for virtual MiNT consoles 1 to 9, but use a VGA monitor on a VME graphics card, for console (ie:  AES) at the same time
<Quietti> now, my own question:
<rincewind> Quietty: If you do not need VDI, multiple VGA cards are just a software problem.
<Quietti> will there ever be a Milan laptop?  My Stacy is nice, but it's slow and can only have 4 megs of ram, so a Milan laptop would be quite welcome ;-))
<Quietti> vconsd uses vdi, afaik
<ThomasG> You must draw everything yourself.
<rincewind> I suppose not. It would have to be a completely new hardware design
<rincewind> I doubt that there would be a market for that.
<ozk> The vcons are hardcoded to work with Atari's own video-circuitry, while the aes access the screen via vdi. That's what make it possible to have two screens connected to a TT/falcon with gfx card. (I use that)
<Tib_F2> now <_Thomas> has a question about the processor...
<_Thomas> why 680x0 and not PPC? It has a future that the 680x0 don't have...
<rincewind> ozk: you could use a VGA card in text mode for the consoles. We would need support for switching between text and graphics mode in the OS, then your driver could do the rest.
<rincewind> ozk: in that case, a second card in textmode would be easier, too.
<Uwe_S> We are using the 040 CPU because or the low price and the compatibility with the older 680x0 CPUs.
<ThomasG> I think so too,and ist relative simple to implement
[petzi] _Thomas: You need a completely re-designed OS for PPC, and you need special software-version also. That's not done in a day, just think about how Amiga struggles with that. I personally think supporting the existing software is a wise decision before looking ahead with a strong market
<ozk>  Quietti:  i think it would be a good thing for the hardware team to 
investigate how the MiNTe using the 040 CPU because of the video
<Tib_F2> now <popel> has a question about the production of the milan...
<Uwe_S> We thought about a PPC design with an software emulation like the Mac but with this emulation a very fast PPC is needed to get the same speed as an 040/060 CPU.
<popel> I heard about alot of preorders for the MIlan, who long will it last till you can deliver the systems?
<popel> how many systems are peorderd?
[petzi] popel: Ali should answer that one, for he has all the statistics
<Tib_F2> we seem to have some more lag in the irc.......
<ThomasG> Ali is not there but i think >100
<Tib_F2> <Quietti> just a comment:  since the MiNT vcons using a TTM195 on the TT video, while the AES goes through a video card, is a common trick, it might be a good idea for the hardware crew to investigate vcons sources
[petzi] Ali, how many preorders have we got?
<ag-milan> I think this is something we should not talk about here ... just two things: Imagine what happenes if almost 40 dealers have some ATARI-Users that want to have a Milan NOW and not tomorrow and
<ag-milan> then imagine what happenes if some of the dealers have a demo-mashine for 3 days and the number of orders grows 2 to 5 times of the number bevore ...
<ag-milan> after people have seen this wonderful mashine :-)
<drac030> hm,
<drac030> we (at least me) used to see Atari logo at bootup. how the milan logo 
looks like ?
<rincewind> The Milan logo (only the "Milan") as on www.milan-computer.de
[petzi] drac030: Look at the website ... http://www-milan-computer.de
<drac030> thanks
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh> has a question about music
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh> please go ahead
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh1> has problems....
<Tib_F2> <_Thomas> your turn....
<_Thomas> What development tools are there? Devpac for example, only supports -68040 and I dunno if I could live without it... :)
<rincewind> Thomas: gcc/gas work fine, and PureC. There are not that much new opcodes you could use on the 68040/68060 in usermode.
<ThomasG> I Use PureC and The Pure Debugger.Both work fine.
<rincewind> So a development system that does support the 68030 or newer is usually sufficient.
<rincewind> PuerPascal should work, too.
<drac030> thomas/rincewind: do original debuggers work? i heard there are problems on afterburner for example?
<Tib_F2> <Mario_> has a questiion about usenet....
<rincewind> you need a patched version of pure debugger to work on the 68040 CPU.
<Mario_> I read in c.s.a.s. that Milan will be bundled with apps incl. Papyrus 6 "Home", Texel 2"Home" etc. Does that mean these are not fully functional versions, or what? Also, will Papyrus 6 be available apart from with the Milan?
<rincewind> (which is available from ASH)
<drac030> thanks.
<ozk> draco: What debuggers are you referring to?
<drac030> ozk: pure debugger, monst...
<drac030> (i guess gdb works)
<ozk> draco: Ok
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh1> will the Milan developers make music/MIDI/D2D as important a theme as with the original ST/Falcon?
<ag-milan> I think we should - for the ATARI-Musicians! But isnt it nice that people will soon be able to choose between different soundcards, between 1 or 3 Rom-Ports andso on?
[petzi] Mario_: The apps you mentioned are special versions for the software-bundle, which lack some functions that are mostly only interisting for professional use - you can upgrade all versions. Papyrus 6 is already available from ROM-LOGICWARE, yes
<Tib_F2> <TomFerrei> Curious if Hasbro, the new owners of the Atari enterprise, have shown any interest in your company and the Milan?
<Tib_F2> petzi: <Mario_> Will those apps be in English?
[petzi] Mario_: English versions of papyrus, smurf and texel are available in 
August, the rest is in development <ag-milan> I have been to the HASBRO 
Headquarters in Germany ... they are only interested in developeing Games for 
PC, U64 and Playstations but they will fully respect and accept milan, TOS and 
the TOS-Market without makeing any trouble regarding their new rights.
<ag-milan> Thats good news for everyone who uses somewhere or somehow the name ATARI ...
<Tib_F2> <Quietti> goes for another one
<Quietti> since we were mentioning music, does the milan have built-in midi ports, or at least a DB-9 like the hades?   als,
<Quietti> are the OS sources public using GNU copyleft or similar?
<Quietti> or will developpers only get a bundle of C bindings?
<Quietti> thanks.
<rincewind> The sources are not free. The TOS is licensed work from Atari/DRI.
<Quietti> oh!
<Quietti> speaking of DRI/TOS:
<rincewind> You get the same as on all ST machines - the TOS is fully compatible.
<rincewind> Now if you yse MiNT, this one is free of course.
<Uwe_S> No, the Milan has no built in Midi-port. There are drivers for a ISA-PlugIn Midi card and the Midi port on a Soundblaster compatible port
<Quietti> what is the current status?  from the purchase file made public, it's not clear wether jts still owns tos or if hasbro bought them;  sometimes, it seems hasbro only owns the atari name, sometimes that they own everything. what's the story?
<Tib_F2> <AnthonyJ> what about Lattice? Over here (UK) Pure-C isn't anywhere near as popular as Lattice.
<Quietti> if it's possible, it would be good to make TOS available under GNU copyleft, so people on MiNT and MagiC could implement similar features, while still respecting the original copyrights
<rincewind> That's definitely not possible - due to licensing/copyright issues.
<ThomasG> I dont have Lattice ,but the original C Souces of the TOS are compiled with Latice i think.
<Quietti> also, what about YOUR tos version?  when will the TT version be available, for upgrades?
<Quietti> pfiew!!!!! many questions. thanks! ;)
<rincewind> I have the current TOS running on my TT for testing. However, it will take some more work to make it a stable, releasable version.
<ag-milan> HASBRO own everything! They are mostly interested in the name because its well known all over the world ... they are not so interested in the TOS-Market ... or are they? Well, Ive been invited by HASBRO for a longer talk last week and lets see, if therell be a surprise, soon....
<Tib_F2> ok, no more 
questions? just ask!
<Quietti> who owns the TT schematics? there are hardware upgrades i have, but i need the full scpecs before i can produce them, but no one seems to have access to the designs...
<drac030> ok, some gnu software has autocofnig scripts that looks for vendor=atari ... shall we keep that style or we should move to vendor = milan? (free software foundation may complain, as i hear)
<rincewind> I guess we should leave it as 'atari', since the OS etc. is known 
under that name.
<Quietti> for instance, i want to fix the TT video chip to remove the white border, but i need all the sources for that... do i ask hasbro or jts?
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<drac030> rincewind so thought i (the same OS may run on genuine ataris as well)
<rincewind> I don't think anyone has access to the hardware documentation about the chips itself.
<rincewind> The TT schematic etc. should still be available from 'Schaltungsdienst Lange' in Berlin.
<Quietti> well... who has it? JTS or Hasbro?  it's probably simple to fix, since it works fine on the Falcon..
<rincewind> Um - what do you mean by 'fix'? make a new chip without the bug?
<Quietti> rincewind, i specifically need tt video-shifter sources, to fix that bug
<Quietti> exactly. a new shifter
<rincewind> Difficult. However, you should be able to make a new shifter without knowing how atari did theirs.
<Quietti> i want to fix 2 things:  the squashed alignment problem, the white border
<Quietti> well... beyond fixing, i'd like to make into a pseudo-videl that 
knows about the programable modes...
<rincewind> However, IIRC the shifter contains the D/A converters. Producing such a chip with midex digital/analog design does not sound trivial.
<Quietti> exactly.
<rincewind> And the shifter does know nothing about the video modes. You need to change the other chips, too, to get new modes.
<rincewind> I guess it might be easier to develop some kind of graphics card.
<Quietti> that's why i'd rather start with videl and tt-shifter sources, to know how they fixed it for Falcon
<rincewind> I think they did not 'fix' it - they designed a new chip.
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<Quietti> well... yes, but they obviously fixed the color modes NOT to have that stupid white border like on TT
<Quietti> anyhow.. ;)
<drac030> quietti: there may be a way to fix the tt shifter by an externla circuit.
<drac030> no need to redesign the whole chip just for a black border.
<Quietti> draco, possibly. mario tried a few things already
<rincewind> OK. How about some more Milan questions?
<drac030> rincewind: speaking about video
<drac030> rincewidn: what is the default colour for the screen? whilte (atari) or black (pc)?
<rincewind> white.
<rincewind> At least when running in monochrome mode. Colour modes use the same standard palette as other STs.
<ozk> rincewind: Are you on a Milan now?
<rincewind> No. It more looks like a Sun UltraSparc :-)
<ozk> Any of you milan developers using a Milan right now?
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh> how far advanced is work with Soundpool/Softjee and when 
will drivers for D2D be finished?
<Tib_F2> <[Vido]> is NeoN Grafix working on Milan?
<ag-milan> SoundPool-Software almost works on Milan! Softjee will start to work on it this summer
[petzi] Vido: The TT-version should work ... Ali?
<Tib_F2> >Comp7> And how about Cubase audio? apparantly steinberg stopped atari development so is the last version completely compatible with milan+dsp card?
[petzi] Comp7: The latest version will be ported to Milan, according to Charly Steinberg ... but no date now, for he's working on it in his spare time
<Tib_F2> ok, we seem to have serious lag at the IRC again. lokks like we took a bad time for this event ;-)
<Tib_F2> well, here they go :((((((
<Tib_F2> <Tiitsu> Is it coming any drivers for PCI soundcards?
<Tib_F2> <GothAsh> so a realistic timescale for a Milan capable of low-cost multi-track D2D recording is??
<Tib_F2> <GABBERKID> can you just buy a motherboard so i can install what i want
<Tib_F2> <[NUT]> hey! we can't write to this channel anymore... what's up?
<rincewind> The channel is moderated. /msg your Questions to tib_f2
<Tib_F2> Dial_M> (Sorry for the long question coming up...) Has there been any interest from outside the Atari world, like Linux, other computing mags, etc.? I
<Tib_F2> remember the BeBox getting some press not long after its release, they just had no software and an unfinished yet powerful OS. Milan could take off if
<Tib_F2> marketed properly--but it also has to be able to work with PC & Mac files (Word processing and images, etc..) and a good networking system.
<rincewind> Bare boards are available to dealers only - at least in the 
beginning, so you have to ask your local dealer if he is willing to sell a 
board only.
<Quiet-> What if there is no Atari delaer left in my country?
[petzi] Dial_M: There has been lots of interest from the MIDI-mags, as one can expect. I agree that there are big chances to present this system to a wider audience also. There have been some requests from media, yes. I see no problems with files, for they are already lots of solutions, including network-cards
<Quiet-> then, can we just order a motherboard with hardware details and installation floppies?
<drac030> are there any plans for netware/samba clients for milan?
<rincewind> I think Torsten Lang is working on that as part of his 
Mintnet/NE2000 drivers.
<_Mario> When will Milan actually be shipped?
<ozk> milanteam: Will there be a motherboard (if successful) that is designed 
around the 060?
<JoNk> I just want to know "how available will the Milan be tothe states??
<rincewind> ozk: I think we will stay with the daughterboard for the 060.
<ag-milan> We do not need a special 060-design ... just plug in our little daughterboard :)
<Felice_> how compatible is the Milan with Falcon software ?
<GothAsh> milanteam: I've been impressed with everything I've seen and heard - Atari/TOS computing is in safe hands - good luck and keep us informed :-)
<rincewind> ozk: no, just pull out the 040 and plug in the board.
<Dial_M> Can the motherboard handle differnent speeds of CPUs and FPUs?
<Quiet-> jonk, he answered earlier:  he has about 40 dealers in the sleeves, worldwide, including canada/us
<[NUT]> what is the biggest news what came out here?
<Comp7> SO how about the price? :)
<drac030> rincewind: 15 june is in a week.... :-)
<pahartik^> Finnish Atari dealer Prisolo has has Milan on their list (http://miika.netholic.com/prisolo/) for quite a while... do you have deal with them already? :)
<_Mario> And where in New Zealand am I suppoesd to buy it?
[petzi] Comp7: I think there are no details now
<Quiet-> felice, there is a list on their homepage; generally any clean vdi/gem apps will work
<rincewind> The board can handle 20 to 33MHz fine. The FPU is built into the 040, so there is no separate speed.
<JoNk> Quiet, what did the say the price will be?
<ag-milan> No deal, yet. The retail-price for the milan-system (a complete 
system") will be about 850,- US$
<Quiet-> jonk, no prices yet
<drac030> jo i have a bunch of beer gadgets for you, forgot to say :-)
<Felice_> jonk: I was just wondering if PD such as Maggie, etc would work with the Milan ;)
<JoNk> Felice, me to
<rincewind> Most of the software we tested which did not rely on falcon-specific hardware worked fine.
<ozk> rincewind: Are you 100% done with the machine now? So it can go into production soon?
<Felice_> jonk: once Titan (in UK) get a machine in we hope to test it for ourselves and review it in the next Maggie ;)
<rincewind> ozk: the hardware is done. There are still some minor issues with the OS.
<joska> I see the Milan-people are still here, I just wondered if the 060-upgrade will fit in my AB...
<drac030> milanteam: who is the dealer in poland? you mentioned someone like that...
<[NUT]> anyone interested in telling what hapned here and tell me all the pro's of the milan?
<JoNk> ag-milan, what kind of web browser will be used? hopefully somethinng better than CAB (no offense anyone).... and is there any plans to port Netscape?
<rincewind> joska: It might - not sure, it sdepends on the design of the AB.
<Comp7> jonk: at milan speed, cab might actually become usable :)
<Quiet-> nut, read the log files everyone will have on their site soon ;)
<rincewind> joska: and I guess the AB uses still TOS 4.04 to boot, which might get in trouble with a '060.
<Comp7> ah yes, the milan has tos 5.00 right?
<[fn]> rince: but a TOS for all Computer (ROM-Upgrade) will support 040 and 060, right?
<Quiet-> rincew, does the TOS implement the ideas seen in tos 4.92 beta of tos 5.0 ?
<JoNk> C7, has anyone said anything about a Netscape port? the source code is out ya know...
<Felice_> rincewind: had any chance to test out any demos yet ?
<Comp7> umm I mean 6.00... umm I'm confused now :)
<rincewind> fn: the TOS for the older machines will probably not support 040/060, since autodetecting some stuff is a bit painful.
<Comp7> jonk: It has been for a long while, but so far no one could be bothered to port it to the atari :)
<ag-milan> JonK: actually we do not have anything better, there are some things in Work ... Netscape is soon running with 68K-Linux, some guys are working on it.
<[fn]> rince: I doesn't mean special 040/060 support, I mean 040/060 friendly routines :-)
<Comp7> jonk: Keep in mind, netscape on a 16mhz atari would be slower than cab... but on the milan it MIGHT be workable :)
<drac030> ag-milan: hm... is it possible to have netscape for GEM (MiNT)?
<Comp7> :)
<rincewind> fn: how friendly do you want it? The TOS works find on 040, as long as you leave the caches off :-)
<rosebud> How are you going to port Netscape for a non-X11 platform?
<JoNk> Will the 060 be @ 60mhz ?
<ag-milan> Netscape shoudl be possible and we would support anyone wod like to do the work on it but actually we do have a lot of other things to do ...
<Comp7> rosebud: Some rewriting :)
<Quiet-> rosebud, good point
<rincewind> rosebud: there is already a port of Netscape to the Qt-Library.
<[fn]> ag-milan: don't port Netscape, this monster application is a killer for every computer
<rosebud> comp7: Some? :)
<[Gryf]> At least, there's already "QTscape", so it is possbile to change the interface routines ...
<rosebud> rincewind: What kind of library is this?
<Comp7> maybe porting Opera might be a better idea than netscape
<drac030> rosebud/comp7: someone mentioned on the mintlist not that long ago about X11->GEM library. well...
<Quiet-> fn, the best idea would be to invent a new web suite that uses mintnet and AES 4.x
<joska> Please stay away from Netscape, it's a sh*tty piece of software. It's better to write a MiNT-aware browser from scratch (hi ozk ;-) and perhaps steal some code from Netscape.
<[Gryf]> Though I still prefer using Netscape Navigator / Communicator with X11
<rincewind> rosebud: an OS independant library from troll tech - KDE for Linux is based on it. Qt runs at least on Unix and Windows.
<rosebud> BTW, Java for the Milan (and TOS) would be fine. If the Amiga users have a port, this is also possible for the Atari.
<Felice_> fn: shouldn't you be referring to IE here ? Netscape runs pretty much better ;)
<JoNk> c7, yes, I think you're right.... wasn't Opera made with Amiga??
<ozk> joska: Heheh ;-)
<Comp7> jonk: Nope
<drac030> joska: yeps, but it is good to HAVE netscape, even if we don't use it (for publicity reason)
<rosebud> rincewind: Ah, I see.
<Comp7> jonk: They're planning to work on the amiga version
<Comp7> jonk: It's not even out yet
<JoNk> c7, opera??
<joska> conp7: They've not even started on the implementation...
<ozk> ag-milan: Seriously.. do you plan to do something like distributing developers machines?
<rincewind> rosebud: so it means that it is possible to port the GUI frontend part - the guys did the QtScape hack in (IIRC) 5 days.
<JoNk> c7, I've used Opera
<rincewind> rosebud: there was an article in one of the past c't magazines about that.
<drac030> comp7: opera is pretty unuseful here (no latin 2 support)
<Comp7> draco: Well there is a difference between need for expansion (no latin 2 support) or just completely bad structure and a complete mess (cab) :)
<ag-milan> ozk: Yes, of course we do! We have already shipped nearly 10 developer-mashines. The result: Zip-Drive-Parallel-Port-Driver, 3Com-Palm-Pilo-Driver, CD-Writer soon for IDE, and a lot more ... we only have to know that the developers mashines are needed for serios works
<[NUT]_> what is the release date of TOS 6.0 for all atari's?
<Felice_> ag-milan: have u shipped any machines to the UK yet ?
<ozk> ag-milan: Ah. How do I convince you?
<ozk> ag-milan: to what email addy can I write abou it?
<GothAsh> ag-milan: keep us posted of these third-party developments on the web page :-)
<Quietti> ozk, show him your text viewer and GEM lib
<GothAsh> petzi: look forward to it!
<ozk> qui: It's not done yet .)
<ag-milan> ozk: Please visit our homepage and just send an email to the webmaster, hell post it to me.
<ozk> ag-milan: I'll to that :)
<sentry23> evening ..
<drac030> quietti: you wanna mine? :-)
<ozk> ag-milan: What do one get with the developers machine?
<ozk> ag-milan: I'm gonna buy a milan anyway, just want to make sure I get all development info with it.
<[fn]> ag-milan: yes, I will also buy al Milan as fast as it available
<ag-milan> Okay, guys, thank you all for visiting #milan here. It was great to have an international discussion, I hat at least 20 personal chats and we can promise you the English sites will be availabe, soon. Were all giving almost everything to be able to celebrate the rebirth of the atari-market. Sorry, but Ill leave today. Soon well have a new chat thatll be anounced on our web-page
<[NUT]_> hmmm, who will carry the milan in THE NETHERLANDS? and at what price?
<ag-milan> Okay, one last thing NUT: MABN and meybe ACN
<JoNk> ag-milan, what is the OS/desktop it will come with??
[petzi] One last thing: I'll be in the Boston area from June 12th to June 30st. If anyone lives there, I'll be happy to answer questions personally
[petzi] JoNk: Thing/MilanOS/TOS
<Quietti> jonk, n.aes/thing
<sentry23> petzi: is there dsp ability in the future of milan ?
<JoNk> petzi, Thing 1.26 English also?
[petzi] JoNk: If the Milan is available worlwide, there should be an English version;)
<JoNk> petzi, I know... stupd question :)
[petzi] sentry23: So far the Startrack runs with the Milan, URL on our website
<[NUT]_> sentry: sorry i don't know which one... but i doubt it is the one in the falcon... ;)
<sentry23> nut: why any other.. ?
<sentry23> nut: doesnt make much sense to inlcude an uncomptible DSP
<[NUT]_> sentry: well it will be a 56k
